Different Opinions Resulting in Questionable Behaviors

In the light of what's happening among the vloggers from another Deaf aggregator nowadays, I want to step on the soapbox to share what I have been witnessing in the Deaf-centered aggregators over the last 4 years.

I have seen again and again at how the people react when one finds himself/herself disagreeing with a certain person's perspective... the feathers are usually ruffled and then some people would either/both blog/vlog about it, targeting certain people they disagree with.  Sometimes one would go far to commit prejudice (sexism, ageism, you name it.)  Amy Cohen Efron explained her experience with the harassment which got so bad that her workplace was contacted by whoever disagreed with her blog.  Several people have had their employers contacted, just merely because the callers disagreed with their opinions.

http://www.deafeyeseeit.com/2010/09/24/disillusionment-with-the-deaf-community/

I want to state that I SUPPORTED one's contacting another's workplace because the employee used his students to investigate on one certain vlogger's background and he revealed the vlogger's personal information online, as well as he mocked fun of her sexually... that is sexual harassment :-(  Of course, a few other vloggers mocked fun of her sexually as well.  That I do NOT support...  The point is when one disagrees, one does NOT have to resort to emotional and sexual harassment just to have an upper hand.

Sure makes the cyberspace a fun place to feel safe in, huh? Not...

I do remember four years ago, after the Deaf Bilingual Coalition's first convention held in Milwaukee, WI, amid the disagreements and agreements, I came across one blog that stated a letter was sent to one core member's employer and I was taken back by it... why would one go that far to contact one's employer?  I mentioned it in a few comments, making it clear that I was disappointed with that action and that even though I did not always agree with the core member, I still admired her a lot (even today I still admire her.)  As soon as the word spread around, the information about the letter supposedly sent to her employer was removed from DeafRead, so even to this day, I have NO idea if it actually was sent to her employer or not.  But... oh man, I believe that was my first witness of the harassment which got out of the cyberspace, affecting the real lives of bloggers/vloggers. 

Sure, I disagree and I don't mince words over it.  So what?  But actually overstepping the boundaries... not in me.  I respect people's PERSONAL boundaries, even the ones I am not crazy about.  That's called RESPECT.  

Whatever happens in Deaf cyberspace... stays in Deaf cyberspace.

 

UPDATED:  Candy's posting: 

http://candysweetblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/confronting-bullies/

Comments

[patti durr]

heye Karen

thanks for this blog entry

many folks forget that the proper sign for "respect" goes both ways - away from us towards the other person and from that person towards ourselves- SIMULTANEOUSLY. isnt ASL grand. i mean that concept - all that information is HUGE but usually most folks just sign it one way and usually to demand respect towards themselves without examining whether or not they have been giving respect

we gotta look at the all of it - gestalt and all that .... holistically (gosh these are weird days, eh?)

re: crossing the line- yep for me when folks threaten and/or unjustly report to workplace, dept of justice, state senators, or licensing boards then i get mightily miffed

again big thanks for the above and biggest thanks for the other blog entries on other bloggers u have covered

u be singing girl!

peace

patti

[Karen Mayes]

Hmmm... I did email to the governor of Wisconsin stating that an organization did not represent me, during the bill calling for the full coverage of cochlear implants by health insurances. That's the action of the civil disobedience, having nothing to do with people, being a different matter, hence political. Personal, with outright threatening one's job... that's a big NO in my book.

Hope you are doing great.

[theholism]

A good thing I don't work for anybody otherwise my employer would have received tons of letters from people like Ridor, ASLEveryday, ASLitself and others.

I remember being accused of contacting Barbara Digi and David Eberwein's employers, which never happened. I waited patiently until a shred of evidence showed up about a year and half later. Barbara Digi and David Eberwein were able to secure copies of the letters and showed them to Ella. Ella acknowledged this in one of her video commment and stated that she personally saw copies of the letters and acknowledged that they did not contain my signature. Needless to say that I kept her video comment into my hard drive for future reference.

The boiling question is why did Ella, Barbara Digi, David Eberwein and many of their supporters allow the accusation against me to fly around for a long time knowing that the letters were not from me. I've yet to see the letters myself and am still waiting.

Ella, Barb Digi, David Eberwein and many others know the answer to the question but yet they have refused to leak this information, I suspect because it came from within their own circle of friends. Otherwise they would have spilled the beans long time ago.

Shameful.

[mcconnell]

This is more problematic than many people may realize due to the size and nature of the Deaf community. I've had many correspondences with people who explained how efforts were made to find dirt on them, commit false rumors, pry into their private lives, inappropriate contact with their friends and relatives, and even the contact of employers and bring forth false information as a way to somehow "get back" at people they don't like simply because of an opinion or viewpoint over certain deaf-related issues. Or simply the fact as Tayler has pointed our earlier in his blog could be due to the lack of critical thinking and assume certain things wrongly in the worst way. They will never be contained within just cyberspace, sadly tho.

[joseph]

I'm tired of these types of discussions.

It's normal for people to have heated debated and discussions online.

It's also normal for people to be vilified, especially when they repeatedly support stupid or badly informed positions.

Look at hearing websites.

I think our insistence that Deaf people must behave nicely is just another example of us self-discriminating against ourselves. After all, hearies tell us all our lives to "keep our place," one way or another.

[Karen Mayes]

Thanks for letting us know... apparently I missed Ella's videocomment in which she said that you were innocent. I had always wondered about it... I knew you had nothing to do with it, because you were not the kind of person who'd go around calling the employers.

Still, people making threats or calling people's employers out of personal vendattas... is upsetting and a sure way to create fear and distrust.

[Karen Mayes]

McConnell, could be that. It seems the emotions have upper hand over critical thinking. If one disagrees, fine... leave at that. But going far to create lies, threats, or/and contacts to workplaces to try jeopardizing the jobs... nah nah.

[Karen Mayes]

joseph...I hear you. I don't have a problem with having heated debates and discussions. As I said in the posting, whatever happens in the cyberspace...STAYS in the cyberspace. But I see some people have a hard time dealing with it, hence certain behaviors... hm. That's why I bemoaned for respect in the last few years.

[theholism]

Thanks Karen. I was going to vlog about it and post the video of Ella's statement regarding the letter but I could not because I was warned of repeating copyright infringements via youtube.com and DeafVideo.tv. Copying what people said and pasting them on my vlogs was not permissible. They're using it as an excuse to shut me up however it does not stop me from distributing copies via emails to private individuals who really wanted to know the ultimate truth on these letters. I'd be glad to send you a copy as well.

[Karen Mayes]

Barry, you don't need to send me the copy... I believe you. At least, you are stating here on my blog that you had nothing to do with it and that Ella acknowledged it. That's good enuff.

[theholism]

One more thing Karen... in that video comment Ella did not say I was innocent. She only said that she saw the letters and they did not contain my signatures and went on to say that I was too clever.

[Dianrez]

Collecting information on a v/blogger or contacting their employers or relatives constitutes harassment. To say the least.

People who do that, in my opinion, should be exposed...such things are never done without demanding accountability. It's like the right to face one's accusers in court and the burden of proof is on the accuser.

Realistically, in the wilderness of cyberspace, such an action would only escalate the ugliness that goes on universally even in hearing spaces.

Using other people such as one's students or children to seek information is in a gray area...sometimes students are assigned to do homework on bloggers, as happened to me recently. That doesn't mean harassment or dirt gathering.

I allowed one interpreting student to do this on the condition that she send me a copy of her paper which she did, and she even included her Powerpoint presentation as well. This was an exchange that allowed me to correct any mistakes or omissions which she was free to use or not. In the meantime, I saw her young person's view of my position which was educational for me, too.

Ugliness aside, taking a public position involves exposure, scrutiny and verification that one knows what one is talking about and is being truthful. Scrutiny also helps determine if a blogger is being deceitful or manipulative in achieving one's agenda. There is a limit, however, and it is where a blogger's reputation or job is threatened unfairly.

Repeating an old saw...attack the issues, not the bloggers.

[Karen Mayes]

Dianrez, you are correct... about having the limit in the cyberspace. That's why I prefer to use my real identity... so that I'd be accountable for whatever I say in the cyberspace. People are welcome to read my blog with a grain of salt, a full tablespoon of salt, or a teaspoon of sugar... either way, as long as we show each other respect, even if we disagree. It seems there's a need for a set of rules for etiquette for the cyberspace... But of course, the cyberspace is a wild, wild west for anyone to be someone else he/she is not.

[Ok Go]

How about this... ******* (****) digging several peoples' records such as IRS that she has access from her work place. She shared the info to ***, ****, etc. Is it conspiracy? Yes, I think so.

[Candy]

Oh yeah, people who do things like that, contacting anyone's workplaces, need to be EXPOSED big time! Very much in agreement with that.

As in my situation, I've kept the letters, too.

[Karen Mayes]

Ok Go... I dont know anything about it and I do hope it's not true. Your comment just reflects the fear and paranoia in the Deaf cyberspace, unjustly or justly, depending on how one views it. I am going to edit your comment somewhat, because I don't want us to gather up anger against certain people especially when we don't really know for sure if he/she did that and that.

Candy, yup.

[Ok Go]

I understand. We will see when the time comes.

[mcconnell]

Karen, absolutely. Sometimes it gets so bad that a person is forced to legally change his/her last name because of the invasion of privacy because of cyberspace. A true case I know of personally.

Sometimes trying to look at things "intellectually" at other bloggers and vloggers may result a "fried brain syndrome" response. Calling it something else when there's nothing there to begin with to call it as. In other words, all in the imagination. And from there it can lead to more damaging/destructive behaviors and responses. It's really a de-evolutionary process when people's own thinking simply starts to bog down. Sometimes suspicion is the root of this breakdown process.

[Candy]

Since that person brought it up, you have to understand that anyone who works for any government agency that has access to such data base is ALWAYS tracked, every thing that is typed is tracked and kept. We have training every year and the consequences is severe, very severe. Why would I do something stupid to jeopardize my job that I have worked at for years? Dumb.

I have a very good research skills online that anyone else has access to, such as google or any web cache archives online.

What is also interesting is that one person made such statement, but failed to specifically point out to a specific information because if he had, I could easily point out to him where I got that information online, via Google. Of course.

When these individuals contacted my workplace, I knew that the allegation of one person would be in my favor because I would never do anything like that and they do track these things. Oh yeah, they do.

[Karen Mayes]

For anyone who reads McConnell's comment about "fried brain symptom", here is the link to it, so that you'd understand where he's coming from better.

http://kokonutpundits.blogspot.com/2010/09/fried-brain-and-yummy-desserts.html

[Valhallian]

I totally agree that respect should go in all different directions and that it should be reciprocal, but unfortunately not everyone knows how to do that and we have to live with that. I totally agree with you that one should not to to another employer, unless it was for a serious crime or the like. However, I am not so sure if what happens in deaf cyberspace should always stay in deaf cyberspace, considering that there are at times tools, information, or knowledge in there that can be useful outside of the deaf cyberspace. Its just a matter of common sense and unfortunately, not everyone has common sense either. All in all, good post!

[Karen Mayes]

Hi Valhallian :-)

Yeah, you are right... there are some things that we could practice what we learn in the deaf cyberspace and if there are any threat or criminal activity going on, we'd need to report it... no question about it. However, revealing private information, making threats to jeopardize the job security, etc.... all because over a disagreement? No.

Good to see you :-)

[Karen Mayes]

And, Candy...

Thanks for clarifying on how tracking system works in the government agencies and that the consequences could be serious if one gets involved in gathering and sharing information. I learned something new. And... of course, we have our fingertips to gather information from a public site... Google, where all the information is public.

[White Ghost]

Hummmm....

Candy is right at this point. Researching on google as well as the social networking won't do any good. I admit that I strongly am against any of the social networking in order to protect myself. It's all boo-hoo.

Holism....why don't you do the blog/vlog to discuss about the double standard what they did to you and enemies several years ago? The supporters and enemies of yours were the same boat as they both would not accept sending letters to the employers. You don't have to provide any copyrights nor paperwork as evidence. Just tell a story. Use your own logic.

[finlake]

It's one thing to have a heated debate/discourse (and I mean heated), but it's another when it comes to contacting the employers just to spite the opponent. I usually have an iron stomach, but with this case, I'm feeling real nauseated. It's just not even worth it to loose my job over a f--king disagreement.

I mean, sure, Candy and I don't see things eye to eye, but I'll tell you straight off the bat -- I strongly believe Candy and I have -EARNED- each other's respect because we simply agreed to disagree and went on to have a truly healthy discussion. Hell, it's going out real well, to be frank. I simply TOTALLY dig Candy, period.

-THAT-... is easily something a kindergarten can do on by being mutual and move on. I guess it wasn't the case with the "said" person. I tried three times to be lenient and I just couldn't do it any more. My heart can only be soft for quite some time before it hardens up and turn black.

[Karen Mayes]

:-)

There, finlake, you are an example of it's possible for two people of differing opinions to develop respect for each other...

[Candy]

Aww, that's sweet of you to say that, finlake.

It's true, people don't have to have the same view on things in order to be friends. And, people shouldn't take perceptions to heart either.

[theholism]

White Ghost.... I've already done that... already discussed the matter in some of the video comments I made here and there through the year and told my side of story in the blogsphere as well... it didn't help much. There are certain people that want to see the damning piece of evidence, that of video of Ella. And I hear some of the people commending Barb Digi for being the angel that she is... she saw the signature and yet is not coming forward with the information. Angel? My eye.

[Candy]

theHolism..

There are people that are afraid to come out and validate the truth. They may have their reasons for it. There are enough AH's out there that can make life difficult for some people as we have seen.

Then again there are those that are afraid to have the appearance of stepping outside of a so called clique and be accused of siding with another one. And, then there are some that don't give a hoot what others think. In the end, it will be their own conscience that they have to deal with in the long run.

[theholism]

I agree, Candy.

[patti durr]

karen - u writing to wisc was fine. i was referring to when folks send (or say they sent) stuff riddled with falsehoods - Barry knows what im referring to and if u wanna know karen u can go to "People ..." re: CAD bylaws and the CA senators re: AB2072 rally. its old news - no need to go back there just clarifying - exercising ones free speech and advocating peacefully is a good thing and a civic duty and right. Sending false information or manipulating copyrighted materials to try to defame or accuse - not cool. Just reflects badly on the sender and wastes the govts time).

wow the holism in the house - im gonna address ur first comment and add as i go down but perhaps someone else covered that. I have never seen DE or Barb DiGi say YOU SENT THE LETTER as a fact. is it an assumption on your part? Isn't ella's video comment a public statement clearing ur name? What more is it you would like?
How big is your hard drive anyways? Just curious.

But i will tell u in all honesty barry - i have seen u bashed for unjust reasons or in unjust ways. I have done wee shout outs against some of it. Not to compare u with ridor but because ridor does go after other folks in a not so nice way and because u do so also in ur not so nice way - it does make us weary of standing up on either of ur behalf. but i promise ya - if u notify me that someone is unjustly attacking u and all the proof shows yep - i will say UNCOOL, UNCOOL.

im on this bloody truth campaign - it may kill me but im committed to it.

re: folks would be calling up a storm to ur workplace - YEP they probably would.

Peace
Patti

[michael gallagher]

The holism. i think those documents from government at local, state or federal are public records and you should have access to them for evidence. i did have similar situation at deaf center and requested the documents for small price. it says anonymous caller. when person calls and asked to remain anonymous, they are not allowed to disclose any information related to their location and phone #.

[patti durr]

ahhhhh barry - dang it
i thought we could try to play nice

u wrote above: "And I hear some of the people commending Barb Digi for being the angel that she is... she saw the signature and yet is not coming forward with the information. Angel? My eye."

Truths - i have NEVER seen any one calling Barb Digi an angel. she is good and strong and forthright. has her strengths and weakness just like me and .... read for this YOU.

this is what logic and justice would dictate for u to do with this ole wound:
1. confront the person who publicly stated that YOU wrote this letter - pull forth the evidence that this person stated it.

2. request that the statement be retracted

3. express ur disappointment that folks who were aware of this falsehood did not come to your defense.

but ur grievance should be with the person who spread the lie and attack

this u gotta cite first. If folks simply said - he didn't sign it but we have our suspicions he was behind it etc - that is an OPINION and they are entitled - free speech and all that but if they stated you DID DID DO it but u did did didn't and you dont want to be credited for something u didnt do - i say amen to that.

show me where this person spread this falsehood about u and i might get me boots on

if its just causal comments about ya here and there - opinions and not accusations - ya might just wanna let go of those. its small stuff, pal.

again - i do know u have had ur share of being bashed and some nasty stuff thrown ur way. but we all know u aint been an angel neither

wanna start all over?

peace

patti

[Karen Mayes]

Hey theholism...

Okay, dinner out of the way, kids doing their homework, men discussing yesterday's football, here I am checking the comments. Nope, I am not interested in football, ha.

I understand where you are coming from. Being somewhat biased, I know Barb on a personal level, having a history that goes back several years. I did not always agree with her, especially during the DeafRead and DVTV years. Heck, about the reality part... ~groan~ that's between Barb and you. But I never called her an "angel" (if I did, I can't remember); however, she is very good at her job, she's very good with children, that I can't argue with.

I was concerned about the kind of welcome I'd get after moving back to Rochester, NY several months ago, so when she invited my kids and me over to her house, I told her right away that I felt nervous because of what inspired in DeafRead and DVTV. She smiled gently and said something to an effect that there was no need to be nervous and something about respect, leaving it in the cyberspace, something like that. After that, we are back to normal. Plus she's more of an independent thinker (no kidding.) She fully knows that I like you, Paotie, McConnell, etc. and she has no problem and I know fully that she likes Ridor, Ella, etc., and I have no problem with it... it's a matter of respecting each other's boundary.

Hmmm... as for Patti, she did state in public that she disapproved of the harassment you underwent. You can read her latest posting.

Heck, we need to start somewhere. We can always disagree, but we can be examples... disagreeing with respect and no hostility. I don't know if it would happen.

[Candy]

Patti..

for what it is worth, I responded to what Barry said and he says he agrees. Can we accept that as it is?

[Dianrez]

In some of the most recent comments here and there, I see a willingness to listen and broaden understanding even by the most controversial bloggers. Right now it would take me time which isn't available, but every time we see those kinds of remarks they could be spotlighted and given positive attention. More of that could turn things around in deaf cyberspace.

[Valhallian]

aye karen, i totally agree that the personal stuff on people should be left out. they should stick strictly to the issues, and not the person.

[theholism]

Patti,

Not sure why you felt obligated to step in here and defend your hoodized friends. Perhaps it's because you recognized yourself as their follower since that was the only thing I mentioned here that could have meant you. Otherwise I didn't mention you any where in this thread.

Falsehood? Quit assuming I'd know what you're talking about. Contacting the Department of Justice is not the same thing as contacting an employer about an employee. CAD answers to DOJ whenever there are questions on legal issues. I explained that before but it'd seem as if you didn't want to understand.

Sending information (false or not) and sharing videos (copyright or not), does not have anything to do with contacting the employer either. If there's one thing you're really good at it's changing the subject. Same old same old.

So you've never seen DE or Barb DiGi accuse that I sent the letter? Selective hearing, eh? You only hear what you want to hear? Everybody else in the community knows except you? Really cute.

Ella's video comment generated in the public does clear my name, yes. What more do I want? I just told you in this thread. I want to know why they even bothered to accuse me in the first place if they did not do a follow up and disclose who actually signed these letters. It boils down to integrity. They have none and you associate yourself with such people.

How big is my hard drive? Glad to answer that. 2 TB dedicated for the purpose of keeping records of the deafhood and AFA movements. It's about 95% vacant so don't worry about making more mistakes. I've got plenty of room for that.

I don't compare myself with anybody so your analogy on Ridor has fallen on a deaf ear. He's not a competition of mine like you desperately tried to put it. It means you don't have anybody else to compare me with so you threw your best guy forward and named him Ridor. This is laughable.

You being weary of having to stand up on either sides is not a concern of mine. I don't tell you how to consume your energy just as I don't allow anybody to tell me how to consume mine. I never asked you to help and defend me in any way and am not about to start now. Bloody truth campaign? Where were you a year ago? It'd have meant much more a year ago than it does today. I've said it before and I'll say this again.... you have zero credibility with me and I won't be surprised if you saw me the same way. The only difference here is I have nothing to prove to you. Play it nice with somebody else. I did not need the handicap points coming from you.

Wanna start over again? Dream on. You pulled that trick on me before only to pull the rug under me. No credibility the second time around.

[patti durr]

heye karen if u r referring to this:
"disagreeing with respect and no hostility" sure i agree

are we passing notes back and forth via u or something?

whatever we r doing - i thank u for ur efforts

barry - here's me hand. wanna shake?

peace

patti

[theholism]

Hi Karen,

Appreciate your response. I should be watching this football game now but had to kill the bug that's been buzzing... and get it over with.

You being biased? I absolutely understand. That's between you and Barb. You both realized that you're going to see each other more often now that you both live closer so that'll explain why you both put on an act like that. That is understandable. Same thing will happen if I was in your shoes. It's human nature to do something like that.

I did not say somebody called her an angel. I'm saying that some of you are beginning to treat her like one by exposing her bright sides with hope that it'd shadow her dark sides. Well, I ain't buying but that does not mean I'm disgusted with you. In fact I'm glad for you, for the sake of peace because you see her often now. It won't change anything for some people that are out there, including me.

When I was betrayed during my tenure with DBC she did absolutely nothing and stood back in name of hood and did nothing to protect integrity. You was not there so you would not know about it so I don't hold that against you.

Patti did not state in public that she disapproved of the harassment I went through until you guys mentioned it just now, in this thread. That was really lame. I don't even know where to find her blog site. That's the truth. I don't follow her at all.

We need to start some where? That's telling me. I started a long time ago. Where have you guys been? Ugh....

[theholism]

Not falling for your trick Patti.

[Dianrez]

That was revealing, using a 2-tetrabyte hard drive to store up DBC, AFA etc. stuff. This is an evolving world, hey? The DBC or AFA of the future may be different than they are today.

Re. the vlog Ella made clearing Sewell of wrongdoing...why not offer a link to it or a summary instead of excuses about copyrights?

Thankfully most participants in cyberspace are more interested in current issues and developing honest dialogue than in storing up for future rehashing of grudges.

Taking a prosecutorial tack belongs in court. These exist for applying laws including punishment or collecting monetary damages. There's no provision for that in cyberspace. There ARE plenty of receptive readers for constructive blogging.

Should we all say "sorry you felt abused" to those who mount vendettas? Would it help? Probably not. Soreheads want so much more and the issues never completely go away.

[theholism]

Dianrez, ever wonder why Amy Cohen Efron emphasized on the importance of first impression? I know... you forgot about it. DBC and AFA are stuck with stigma. Tough break.

Dynasty of stupidity has continued with you Dianarez. I offered the link to Ella's video comment that cleared me of the wrong doing. Guess what? The vlog was deleted therefore all of the video comments under it were wiped out. That's why I was grateful to have copied it in time before they covered that one up. And yes, that's why I've been keeping records in the hard drive.

Honest dialogue? You call posting a video and deleting it in an effort to cover their calls a honest dialogue. Go figure.

And yes, the evidences that I've gathered to date will be used in the court of law when and if you deafhoodized people make any effort to take somebody to the court based on their view on oralism and cochlear implants like Ella suggested few days ago. Heck, these evidence will also show that deafhoodized people were already looking for somebody to sue. This won't sit too well in the court of law when I show them the evidences.

Trying to put words in my mouth now, eh? I did not feel abused as you put it. I'm only questioning people's integrity here. Abused? That's kindergarten stuff. You and your deafhoodized people are laboring long and hard to erase people's memories but I simply refuse to allow that to happen by reminding who you guys really are inside these hooded robes.

[finlake]

I believe this "d/Deafhood versus d/Deafhood? No thanks" issue is overrated.

I personally don't give a rat's arse about it for I -AM- d/Deaf anyways.

There's a difference between d/Deaf and d/Daft.

What? Are you d/Daft?

No wait! I meant this.

Whut? Are you d/Death?

No no no. I meant this.

Wut? Are you d/Deaf?

What? I can't hear you, ya know?

[Karen Mayes]

Oh.

I woke up and saw the comments... okay, I guess starting is a little tough. Yes, Barry, I know you tried a long ago, with Brance L. as a "mediator". I am not trying to be a mediator, I just stated that I wanted us just to stop the questionable behaviors, starting to respect other people's opinions. I am not expecting you and Ella or anyone else to become best buddies... nope.

I know you are entitled to distrust some people... I don't really blame you. I was not surprised to see the tone of your comments and I hope that the readers would realize what you and others went through, putting up with constant belitting and catcalling. This I hate and I'd be disappointed if others continued belitting and catcalling you, making you a scapegoat, etc.

So there is a deep distrust and I know things will NOT become a bed of roses overnight... I know that.

I don't know what to say. I am just hoping a LITTLE that some people would make an effort not to resort to belitting and catcalling, after reading this blog.

Thanks to ya'all for leaving comments.

[patti]

hi karen

i thank you for all you are trying to do.

barry - i am sorry you make this choice. it is yours to make. My hand is still outstreteched while i be working on commUNITY building. Seems you are lugging around alot more than a mighty harddrive, my brother.

My wish for you is that old wounds heal.

finlake -daftinately.

Karen again thanks.

Peace,
Patti

[Dianrez]

The word "stupid" has been occurring more often in Deaf cyberspace lately. It's to disagree in the most disagreeable way possible. It's also an attempt to negate the opponent's view but, brother, it fails because it contains an admission of "I don't know how else to counter that." So one resorts to namecalling.

The other side of the issue is: angry people are hurt people. By whatever standards they hold, they are hurting and believe that they are right to feel hurt. In many cases this is accurate because in this country people are free to hold opinions, no matter how unpopular, and by the same coin have the right not to be attacked.

Retaliation, lashing back, and holding grudges are less effective ways to cope with hurt than investing the same energy into positive things--i.e. developing successful projects or ideas that work better. It takes real emotional intelligence to accomplish that, however.

[theholism]

Dianrez & Patti,

FYI, stupid is not the same thing as stupidity. I didn't come in here talking to you or Patti and yet you both came in and tried to play with words like you both always do... tried to sound intelligent by dismissing some of the very important facts. This is stupidity. Can't help you there if you did not know the difference.

Show me where I retaliated, lashed back and holding grudges. I started off in this thread discussing the facts about the letters and you call it retaliation? Lashing back? Holding grudges? You're trying to shut me up with important facts here by calling it emotional behavior. Nice try Dianrez. Did not know you could stoop that low but I know that about you now.

Emotional intelligence? Start with yourself, Dianrez. In short, practice what you preach.

Patti, I've said it already and will say it again. You did this to me before. You extended your hand before and I took it only to have you disrespect me in the same thread. Not going to fall for it again. Keep your hands up for as long as you'd care to but you're going to have to rebuild your reputation before I'm going to believe you. There is an old saying that goes like this... "It takes a lifetime to build a reputation but only few seconds to ruin it".

Think about it the next time you toy around with other people's hands. Do yourself a favor and watch my vlog on Code of the West. You'll learn a thing or two when you watch it again.

[theholism]

Thank you Karen for your comment. Appreciated it.

[finlake]

"One should strongly resent miserliness and indulge in charity becaues one can acquire the never-ending wealth of immortality by doing so."

--RGVeda

[theholism]

"One does not fully understand the value of water until one becomes steward of a living thing". ~ Barry Sewell

I wrote that quote some time ago. The principle applies here. One does not fully appreciate the value of integrity until one becomes steward of a community. Integrity has to be in its rightful place and will always require the protection of truth keeper. Miserable? Not at all. It's a duty. You don't tell a solider in a battlefield that their job is miserable.

[finlake]

"He who closes his ears to the views of others shows little confidence in the integrity of his own views."

-- William Congreve

[theholism]

"One that frequently quote others but does not produce them is a person of a great void". I wrote that one too.

[michael gallagher]

This conversation just confirms my quote as a 12 year old. As a 12 year old, i thought "whatever you do is what you get". when you ignore a person, you pay the consequence down the road and not even understand why bad things happen to you.

[finlake]

"Oooo, I'm scared." I wrote that one.

[theholism]

Brilliant finlake. That's a good start. Keep going at it and you'll eventually get better.

[finlake]

-chuckle- Thank you!

[Barb DiGi]

Poor Karen when looking at your blog title "Deaf Tranquil Life" hoping to have some peace here. I feel you. I am just saddened when reading some comments that are not meeting your vision. However, I am pleased to see some positive comments gearing toward the peaceful direction knowing that we are here to work out the differences since we all are entitled to express our opinions.

I can see there are some unresolved issues here especially by Barry and I do not know if he will ever choose to accept the idea of healing by being honest as well. I am here to discuss, not to ignore, about the issues that may have bothered some of us that need to be out in the open since it seems not to go away. So I feel that it is important for every one of us to feel comfortable and safe to have a dialogue with respect here.

First of all, I don't appreciate being called this and that here as I find it absurd being called an angel or else I will be having wings by now. Really, it is not cool for one saying that I have a dark side or whatsoever. It is really immature for one being judgment or personal when one hasn't gotten to known one another on a daily basis especially in person so I am really amused of that comment, tsk tsk.

Secondly, it doesn't help to see an empty threat here when mentioning about lawsuit. It is totally absurd to go on a witch hunt to frame us when it comes to expressing our opinions about ABC or XYZ, nothing more and nothing less. You have nothing on us really. In case you have forgotten, we are in the land of the free to express our opinions thanks to the first Amendment as long as it is not libel and slander or harmful to the others.

Now I can clarify one thing or two about theHolism a.k.a. Barry's involvement in the letter writing campaign. Some of you may confirm that he actually posted the letter (for a short time that he later removed) in his DBCfacts.com a few years ago addressing to our workplaces writing against me and the others just simply because we've expressed our opinion/views in the month of July 2008. I still have that copy though. As of July 14, 2008, I got an email from someone from that group who felt it was unethical that this sensible person backed out and shared with me who was involved. From what I'd read, it said "it was drafted and ready to go" that some of these e-mail group members had the nerve to send it out but some of these got uncomfortable and backed out. Now, I am not saying that Barry may had sent it but he was an accomplice to this malice as he enabled it.

Knowing Patti, she is sincere, not tricky. It is funny coming from Barry as words are like mirrors, hmm. I am just totally disgusted when he is accusing people covering up their tracks when in reality, he covered up his. I have nothing further to say as I rest my case as I don't wish to revisit this ugly memory.

All I am interested right now is to aim for the hope of peace and love for all of us to rejoice in the Deaf vlogosphere just like Dianrez's and Patti's suggestions by re-focusing on what we can contribute to improve for the current-next generation of Deaf children. Folks, shall we get back to the drawing board to continue to spearhead innovative ideas?

Thank you Karen for allowing me to comment in your tranquil blog as I really want to remain that way.

[theholism]

Thank you Barb for coming forward on this. This one was long due. Not sure why you waited until now but that don't matter now that you are here.

Speaking of lawsuits, help me understand something here. Where in this thread did I talk about filing lawsuits against you or any other hoodized folks? If you'd read this thread again I was only talking about gathering and keeping evidences in case one of you decide to file a lawsuit against those who favor oralism method and support cochlear implant makers / users. Perhaps you missed the whole thing but this discussion started several days ago when Ella created a video comment at aslrocks.net talking about suing somebody and embarrassing them. Check out Candy's recent blogs and you'll catch on what we're talking about here.

I never denied the fact that such draft letters reached my desk from different people who were outraged by the nature of discussion that took place inside of an AOL chatroom when we were having our weekly DBC meetings. They came to my desk because pretty much everybody at DeafRead.com and DeafVideo knew that I was on a crusade against Deaf Bilingual Coalition. I produced over 21 vlogs on DBC during that period and that in itself generated different ideas coming from different people who felt disgusted with what DBC was doing. It does not mean I agreed with everything that these disgusted people might have said or done. I don't control them and their thoughts. The idea of writing a letter to your boss was not mine. It did not originate with me. And again because people saw me as the leading crusade figure against DBC they blanketed me with different ideas on how they thought we should approach the matters. Indications and draft of letters reached my desk because of a simple fact. They saw me as the crusader against DBC. There were numerous chatters and discussions among numerous the people. Shortly afterwards Ben Vess heard about it and approached me. He told me why he thought it would not be a good idea. Our discussion was brief and to the point but I agreed with him in an instant, mutually, and joined him in wiping our hands off it.

You call it an accomplice now but you didn't call me that earlier. You desperately tried to tie me to the "sin" and made it sound as if I was the originator and the source of the letter. When you saw the actual letter(s) you learned the ultimate truth. And resorted to accomplice theory. This is false too. I never denied the part where I had received drafts in my email. I posted this important fact on dbcfacts.com just to let people know. Without the posting at dbcfacts.com you would not even know it was coming. I was being straight forward with everybody, you included. I had nothing to hide and still don't. I recognized the difficult position I was in, again because people saw me as the leading figure in this crusade against DBC. That's no secret, Barb. Because I received copies and decided not to carry them out does not make me an accomplice. In fact I told people that I would not get involved. Give credit where it is due. I declined and wiped my hands clean off this saga.

And you? You had your hands on the actual letter(s) as soon as it arrived. I still do not have any clues on how many letters were sent or who sent them. You saw the signature(s) and you knew they did not contain my signature. And yet you sat back and watched the entire sage whereas I was being accused by every directions for a long period of time and yet did absolutely nothing to restore the truth. Perhaps you did so because you were hoping that it'd break me. I don't know. In all honesty I was not worried because I knew that the truth would prevail and it eventually did.

Mind you, Barb, this is the second validation on the matter. The first validation came from Ella. For that I am grateful so I'll thank you for coming forward on this matter. It was long due.

Karen, thank you for allowing us to use this platform to clear up a lot of grounds. Really appreciate it. I am able to move on now that Barb has finally showed up. Without you it probably would not have happened.

[patti durr]

ah so u can move on now barry. Excellent.

Here is my hand again. I assume the slight you are referring to is my stating that "trust" would take time but forgiveness was there and that was a good start.

When you're ready, buddy. Just to be clear I ain't proposing marriage - i got one hubby and that is plenty. I'm just proposing that we forgive and love, love, love...

Regardless it IS good to see one load come off your shoulder. (yes, i did see how you spinned everything but im in a loving and patient mood.) Must be Karen's tranquil space.

Be well.

Karen - biggest thanks.

Peace

patti

[White Ghost]

Barb,

Know what I'm thinking.....I have several critical questions for you. When Barry aka Holism posted a vlog, "Meet your 3rd class deaf leaders." Would you approve of their appearances to Karl White, EDHI leader?

Number two: Would you agree with Ella's Vlog and video comments, "Oralism vs. Speaking" at ASLrocks.net? Would you agree with Candy's two blogs, "A personal journey or A fantasy battle recruitment effort" and "Let's embarrass them, said ____"?

Number three: DBC just announced there are the list of boards via Deafread. Here's the link:

http://www.dbcusa.org/index.php/DBC-Board/DBC-Board-of-Directors.html

There are several same people who involved made into many nasty situations/appearances on CIs/Oralism/AB 2072 and many more since Deafread started in several years ago.

If I were you, I would have resigned DBC and joined the Hands and Voices organization. Hands and Voices sure have the clean reputation because they have NEVER attacked anything at CIs/Oralism/AB 2072 and many more. I rather to see any organizations to be clean reputation.

Make it right decision, Barb. Need to have a second thought. Don't join the "wrong" people and join the "right" people. I wouldn't blame Barry for leaving DBC. He already made the second thought. He tried to make sure the D/deaf community to be clean reputation. That was what Barry wanted to join the "right" people. Unfortunately, it failed miserably.

Russell E. made a vlog, "Where are the hearing parents?" and also made the valid point. Many hearing parents are not THAT stupid to do their homeworks in the internet.

[theholism]

Thanks Patti,

When I said I'm able to move on I meant this specific topic. It does not mean I've moved on regarding everything else. Surely you knew that and tried to blanket yourself under it. This is typical coming from you. One more reason why I simply don't trust you.

Forgiveness? That's not a problem with me at all. I forgive easily and quickly. In fact you were already forgiven in advance but trust is a separate issue with you. Earning my trust again isn't going to be an easy task. It never is. In fact I don't think you need to earn my trust for anything except for the sake of publicity. You'd love for the rest of the world to see that I agreed to shake your hands twice. (laughing here on my end)

Good to know you were not proposing... I'd have believed otherwise. LOL. Love, love, love... sure got plenty of that.

Take care,
Barry

[michael gallagher]

White Ghost, you make very intelligent comments. just out of curiousity, since i know all of the other commenters, could you tell me a bit of yourself? did you ever vlog? you made a very good reference to Ella's oralism vs speaking. that tells me you have been around quite a while...

[Barb DiGi]

I did not know that I was expected to owe you an explanation since I haven't receive any request from you via email or that there were any direct questions to me. I have a full time job and have been juggling responsibilities taking care of my children, my house including a dog making ends meet basically all on my own. I don't usually pay that much attention in the vlogosphere as much as I used to do unless I have been directed or informed by someone that is considered important. It was not intentional leaving you on a limbo but I am here right now and willing to have a dialogue with you. I am trying my best to recap what I am receiving from what I read and recalled based on history and recent developments.

When you said: "And yes, the evidences that I've gathered to date will be used in the court of law..." that was when I interpreted about your intention of filing lawsuits but I am glad you had clarified this. As for whatsoever the plans from certain individuals, I have no part of this or any idea of what is planned in store, FYI. I am not Ella, I am not whoever, I am just me, ok. I will check out Candy's blogs and respond later as I have to go off to watch my son's soccer game right now.

Thank you for coming forward about the letter thing though. See you later.

[theholism]

Barb... I'll thank you for the dialogue. I completely understand your reasons, being extremely busy and all that but it boiled down to ethics, you know? Ethics. This is something many people clearly lack. Coming forward to correct what you know have been wronged even thought there may be nothing in it for them. I know, not everybody share this principle but it's the principle I firmly believe in. Regardless, what was done has been done. Thank you again. Enjoy the soccer game. I played this spot for approximately seven years and I love it. Take care.

[patti durr]

Barry - i have no idea what u r saying or what it is u need to heal holistically. I do wish you well.

Drink lots of water.

Peace

Patti

[White Ghost]

"Coming forward to correct what you know have been wronged even thought there may be nothing in it for them."

That's true, theHolism. That's what I've been telling Barb.

Saw your son, Cobi "New! Deafhood Video Game!" at DVTV.tv! I admit that I'm a huge fan of Cobi's. He's my inspiration. I fistsmack him.

Speaking of Deafhood Foundation's money in the dark at Cobi's new vlog.....oh yes. Realize that the DHF has not received any money from the Industries/Corporations.

[theholism]

Patti, not sure what drinking water has to do with this thread but will say that I've been drinking lots of water for a long time now. Heal holistically? Heal from what? Patti fever? LOL.

[theholism]

Will let Cobi know what you said. He asked me to help with the play and it was a lot of fun. He just went to work on this video after he saw Jeff's "Deafhood Ritual" video and did everything from scratches. Guess he wanted to poke some fun back. LOL. Glad you enjoyed it.

[Karen Mayes]

Hee, Patti and Barry... pretty funny. Patti fever, cute.

All right, I am leaving this "room" and I trust that any comments to be left here would be in good constructive taste.

Ta da ;-)

[mcconnell]

Here's one thing I don't understand and remain wary and distrustful of people who continue to associate themselves with highly questionable people whether or not they were condemned for their abominable actions.

How would you react if somebody wished that you'd trip and fall on your baby son killing him and relished the thought of seeing an anguished and tortured father or mother?

How would you react if somebody wished your friend or somebody you know get injured and become brain damaged?

How would you react if somebody wished that you die in a fire?

How would you react if somebody laughed about your dead relatives?

How would you react if somebody sent you threatening emails?

How would you react if somebody stalked you and tried to find dirt on you by using the local community where you live against you?

How would you react if somebody tried to sue you for something ridiculous in the effort to shut you up?

How would you react if somebody circulated false emails about you and you found out about them from somebody else?

How would you react if somebody continues with the libel, lies, and ad hominem attack crusades?

How would you react because of the lies repeated on the internet that some people would be forced to legally change their last name?

How would you react if people use an organization's website to be used as a personal weapon to attack and call you names and yet the organization refuses to apologize for that transgression?

How would you react to people when they cheer or encourage those types of behaviors instead of condemning them and removing your association with those kinds of people who support people who behave like that?

Despite all that we continue to see many Deaf people and "leaders" who quickly and willingly associate themselves with those characters who behave like that. And yet at the same time you expect people to come with outstretched hands looking for a handshake and trust you when you have supported people who behave boorishly like that? Why should people trust you if you have that kind of an association with people who behave like that?

Trust is a fickle thing my friends. The above is just one example of how trust can easily be lost. And by not condemning and removing yourself of your association with those people who act like that you are essentially no different from them in many people's eyes.

[patti durr]

Barry - Patti Fever - hmmm
Mcconnell re: trust - it is an important thing when folks have felt abused and attacked. it is a hard and slow thing to reclaim

much of what u have cited in the list above works both ways - ive seen it coming and going from all sides

my open hands is not a "forgive and forget" and "pretend" and "kissy wissy and make up" kinda thing

u both pretty much know what i am about. i speak me mind and me heart but i have learned oodles in the past 2 weeks - tons of things that i didnt know cuz i wasnt glued to the terminal and cuz so much happens behind closed doors and because so much is confused or lost or distorted or ....

the one thing i have learned and i still foolishly cling to is the power of hope faith and love

new beginnings - there is much at risk for me with such an offer. I could be branded many many things and attacked falsely in revenge just cuz of me out stretched hands.

this is not a "win" for me. i dont really need this - but i want to believe its possible. this coming together to say - i too forgave u a long time ago and lets start anew.
couple of ground rules:
1. come from love
2. be direct
3. dont take things personally
4. no attacks
5. no falsehoods
6. agree to disagree

cool? doable? possible?

trust - oh lord that will take a mighty long time to build. no worries we got time.

shake? (come on this is not the Iraq war folks - give it a try - what ya got to loose? ohhhh maybe u r afraid to be seen with me??)

peace

patti

[patti durr]

oh goodness - just saw the video game

i believe u have Ella Fever - not Patti Fever. Cure? Water, lots and lots of water and love, Barry. U definitely have not forgiven buddy. Not sure what transgression she committed against ya but wow, you and now it seems ur son too have a thing for Ella.

DeafJeff's vlog playing off all the huppla u spread about Deafhood and Audism inspired a videogame wow

peace

p

[Ann_C]

Ok, done tried to post a comment I dunno how many times, Karen. Hope this goes thru.

Trust seems to be the issue coming up again and again.

Ya know, if you don't agree with a certain v/blogger's view on an issue...

(1) Does it justify that a "machine-gunner" personally attack the v/blogger merely because he holds a different view? It's the ol' "kill the messenger instead" tactic.

(2) Does it justify standing aside silently, tacitly approving the henchman's attacks while not daring to dirty one's own hands? This goes for using others to report a complaint to a v/blogger's employer as well. Hypocrisy at work here.

Not a wonder trust is an issue.

If any of us are to gain trust and respect as v/bloggers, we will have to practice NOT condoning the above behaviors. That can go a long ways in respecting others, no matter their different views. I know that such action can be difficult to do, especially when there is a heated online discussion. We're all human, but we can at least try.

[Barb DiGi]

It is kind of late here but I will just be brief for now since the bed is calling my name in my head. It was unfortunate that my son's team lost but at least the team scored two points within five minutes left of the game which was better than ending up with zero point. It surely gave us a thrill and some hope like it gives us here.

Ok Barry, speaking of ethics, I am a bit confused because posting the letter which was addressed to my employment in your very own dbcfacts blog wasn't exactly ethical either. Nevertheless, I reckon that you removed it knowing it was not in your best judgment so it was much appreciated that you took the step to correct it. It is true that as human beings, we all make unethical moves at some point in our lives that we may not be proud of but that doesn't mean we cannot correct it and move forward to make progress that will allow us to grow to be more productive individuals.

[theholism]

Barb, you're saying that I posted the letter on dbcfacts.com? Not so. What I posted was a copy of the AOL meeting showing who said what regarding rejected Cochlear Implant volunteers and strangling them. No "letter to the employer" was ever posted in that web site. This is the first time I've heard this. I still have the web site in my hard drive and just went over it and do not see any "letter to the employer" posted there.

It could be that you've forgotten exactly what was posted and what was not because it's been a while but fortunately I kept everything in the hard drive and was able to double check just now.

FYI, the removal of the post was the AOL meeting itself. And yes it was an ethical thing to do and I did it without anybody pulling my ears.

And yes, it's important that we begin to move forward now that we've cleared some grounds today. Thank you Barb.

[theholism]

Good questions for people to ponder about, Mike. Precisely how I felt.

[Dianrez]

Now we're getting to several agreements. No one should abuse another in cyberspace. We all have a moral responsibility to speak up if one sees it happening. (hmm, does that mean to mob the miscreants? if more than one or two has the same raised eyebrow?) Ethics in cyberspace is important to all of us, and some of us have withdrawn blogs if they seem to have crossed the line. That's honest and admirable. Patti has set forth guidelines that make sense and will go a long way toward amity among bloggers.

Cobi's video game movie is hysterical. I thoroughly enjoyed it and will be grinning for a long time now. Differences aside, this young man has a creative streak that will turn out to be awesome. Hope you inspire others to turn efforts toward creativity, too! You rock!

Barb, terrific point about all of us being human and correcting ourselves to make progress.

[Barb DiGi]

One more thing before I hit the sack, it is unethical to name names without that party's consent, IF it was that party. How is that helping for one to trust another when one blabs the names without his or her consent?

To be frank with you, I am not that comfortable with this kind of dialogue by dragging other people's names unless they are aware that they are involved (or not involved in the first place) or at least been notified as I don't feel it is fair to them, don't you think? I trust you would want to be treated the same if someone talks about you in an X's blog.

Just like Mike's question style...How would you react if somebody wrote sticky stuff in public about you without telling you?

[theholism]

Patti, you're doing it again. You talk about forgiveness between us and then you tried to blanket it over Ella too assuming that I've forgiven her. I never said I forgave her. If you are trying to represent somebody else (Ella in this case) and seek forgiveness from me for her, don't. This is something you don't do. This is not how it works. You see, this is the trick you love to pull every where, playing with words while you confuse different issues and blanket them over areas that are not relevant in our discussion. This nasty habit of yours has to go.

Most people know that I've offered to meet with Ella several times. I've asked her to make peace each time I did. I even offered to meet her in person. Each time she declined. I think she's too afraid. You see, the issue on forgiveness between Ella and I have not been resolved but the conscience is on her side, not mine since I made the offering several times. But don't you dare try and blanket that over us. You only speak for yourself and when I spoke of forgiveness it was made directly to you.

[Candy]

Barb..

I think what Mike is referring to is when certain kind of attack takes place in public for all to see, it takes a village to stop it.

[Karen Mayes]

Good morning,

Okay, at least, the facts about the letter as perceived by parties are out in open and we could discuss it but NOT on my blog. The purpose of the blog is to heighten the awareness of the need for respect.

Today is just another day ;-)

[Karen Mayes]

The way I see it, it's just a good start, a "progress" to a more respectful, constructive discussion. May it continue...

Thanks for coming here... I know it must not be very easy and I appreciate it.

[patti durr]

Karen - i thank u for allowing this dialogue and for the opporunity for truths to be told

Barry - u have clarified that you have not forgiven someone. Some day i hope that matter can be resolved through truths and love. Trust i know will be a long haul later

Barb - i really admire how u have been so firm and forthright here.

Going back to Barry's very first comment in this thread we see Ella's name mentioned. I have often seen people in the blogsphere discuss the Barry camp and the Ella camp. I have thought it odd as the dividing line is not clear to me like that at all. Almost all of us clearly have our own minds and we stand by our own positions not any single person or camp. there is a philosophical divide though at times - those who support the right to be a Deaf cultural and linguistic group and those who support the right to be a deafness / disability group and those who support both and those who support nothing smile

In typing in the find box the name Ella I see her name pops up many many many times in this thread. I do not know how i was so selective in my reading that i did not see that this thread may have become a veiled place to defame someone again and again until i hopped out of my happy hopeful place of love, love, love to check out the video game that was being promoted here. AH geez how did i miss that old vendetta against Ella - all roads lead back there.

So i do apologize to Ella for not having seen that until i chose to name her for the very first time.

Barry I am sorry you chosen to hold onto that old hurt and not forgive what ever wrong you feel has been done to you. I can see that it is consuming a great deal of your focus. As you noted a lot of this stuff took place a long time ago.

Hopefully time will heal.

As for you and I - i was not playing any nasty tricks. I was seeking a new beginning for us in the hopes for sincere commUNITY building. Our agreeing to a new beginning would not mean forgetting or trusting but rather agreeing not to ATTACK and agreeing to stand up to ANYONE who was attacking.

I see you are not ready.

I will continue my commitment to naming things when i see them. I regret that my desire for a new beginning blinded me to seeing how Ella has been targeted here and I said nothing.

I will continue to express my heartfelt regret for not having spoken out against attacks I have seen in the past.

Diane - for the video game - i did not find it as hilarious as you did. I do see Cobi is creative but he also uses those gifts to mock, belittle, and attack. I would love to see him employ his talents for more positive purposes. And just a note to Cobi - the MUSIC as the means of hypnotizing the masses might not be the most fitting symbol for the Deafhoodized????? Just a little artistic critic.

Now back to me and my self-examination - i do confess that i have believed in something that was not possible here. That we would come to this table in love and seek to forge a new beginning. It is not meant to be and I accept that. Anything built on a flawed foundation would flounder.

I do thank all the folks who have been accepting my hand and knowing with it comes the promise that I will tell you what i am seeing when i see it so we can figure out where we are standing and where we might like to go from there.

I will now bid you farewell.

Karen has done a good and just and noble thing here with this blog entry.

Much love and peace,

Patti

[White Ghost]

"for the video game - i did not find it as hilarious as you did. I do see Cobi is creative but he also uses those gifts to mock, belittle, and attack." Nice try, Patti D.

So, if you think DeafJeff on "Deafhood Revival" is funny, that would be fine with you. Ella would have been very happy with his humors. So, don't you think that DeafJeff is trying to mock, belittle, and attack Barry? Huh? I find it very amusing as you are trying to rebut what Cobi's attempt to mock, belittle, and attack to all of us. You failed to understand us. I do see you for what: whining if you don't like Cobi or Barry.

Nice try, Patti. I honestly do not find you very funny when you portrayed as "Patsy Durr" or "Rotten Potatoes...whatever it calls" Sorry to say it. You need to work on your humors. You also need to work on your creativity. Cobi is teenager and has some talents to humor us. I just laughed and felt so good. He would have qualified to be in Saturday Night Live.

Laughing is the BEST medicine. We need some laughs. Sure why not?

[theholism]

Patti, you're at it again, again and again, which is precisely why I simply do not and can not trust you. You desperately tried to blanket Cobi's vendetta over Ella as my own vendetta. Shameful. You claim to be your own person but yet in the same breath you're always trying to blanket one person's issue with other person. This is how you manipulate and confuse people. Shameful once more.

My son has his own mind and is a really funny guy, not to mention his creativity skills. He continue to amaze me with how he sees things. And yes, he does follow politics of the deaf community at his own pace. Unfortunately you and many of your friends tried hard to make me rein him in and cap his critical thinking skills, which I've refused to. Your camp called it a case of narcissist and laughed about it while many of you took your own children to politic related rallies and used them in the eye of media. Double standards on your part, guys.

FYI, I simply don't control what my children want to think or do. Do yourself a favor and read some of John Holt books, especially "Teach Your Own". Perhaps then, even though it's highly doubtable, you would begin to understand how I work around my children, unlike how you work with yours.

For some reason you always see Cobi as my puppet, which is perhaps a reflection of how you actually raise your children. I've said this before and I'll say it again. My son has his own mind and is a really funny guy, not to mention his creativity skills. He continue to amaze me with how he view things. You and your friends have been trying hard to paint me as the puppet master with hope that the message would discourage my son from becoming the critical thinker that he is. You along with many other of your followers tried to minimize the credit that belonged to my son. Fortunately for him, it did not alter his desire to get involved. Instead of altering him it taught him a very important lesson. He told me what he learned from it. According to his own words he thought that the younger generations of the deaf community sucks. He really enjoy his time visiting with elderly deaf people but when it came down to our generation and the next he simply see them as disrespectful group of people. Seeing you and some of your friends here and there makes him sick. He always had something to say about you guys and I can understand why. You did not give credit where it was due and now you have a fine young man that is determined to dissect this closed society that you belong to by using political cartoon / comedy. This is your own making. People like you have driven away many of the potentials with radical messages through the years and now apparently there is going to be a price to pay. I can not close my son's eyes and lock him up in a closet so that he won't see the stupidity you guys continue to spew in public's eye. Can't do.

I allow him to see you guys for who you are. Nothing more and nothing less. I simply don't control what my children want to think or do. Do yourself a favor and read some of John Holt books, especially "Teach Your Own". Perhaps then, even though it's highly doubtable, you would begin to understand how I work around my children.

I've already explained that I've offered to forgive Ella and meet with her multiple times only to be rejected. Because of the rejection the forgiveness lingers in the air. And now you're trying to hold that against me... and feeling sorry for Ella. You see, the sympathy you expressed towards Ella tells us only one thing. You have not changed a bit even if you're trying on a new mask. The fourth mask, eh?

Just like White Ghost pointed out, you never bother to mention or condemn ill-humor videos that came from your so-called camp but yet you're always quick to condemn and criticize humor coming from our so-called camp. Your latest comment was more of the same old, same old. Nothing new about you. We still see you for who you really are through that mask of yours. And no, more practice won't help. There are some of us who can and will always see through you for who you really are. I know you won't understand this but that's the truth until your heart have become pure then you'll understand. You're just not there yet. Heal holistically, you say? Begin with yourself since you mentioned it.... words are like mirror, a reflection of self. I'll wish you well in that.

[mcconnell]

The "music" part (singing "deafhood!") in Codi's video is fine since music is a big part of many people with hearing loss as well. Just as many Deaf people who do not care for music. But it wasn't "music" at all it was showing the chanting part where the word reverberates among the "monks" which has a hymnal quality to it. Just like Deafjeff did in his video with his quasi-chanting like tone to it.

It was rather revelatory of Patti to object about the "music" part of Codi's video seeing that "deafhood" is about complete deafness and not about people of all kinds of hearing loss who do enjoy and play music which is can be a part of their own personal journey. This is the kind of "closed society" many have talked about when people object anything related to the audio side of society. Remember, each of us is different and how cherish or not cherish sound and music.

[patti durr]

in my defense - i do have a sense of humor. cuz i do find u guys to be funny right. U r way re-ACTING.

I got an invitation over at "People of the Eye" for folks to list out what harms i (just me) have done against ya in the past so i can make amends. It is sincere. Only requires you tell truths and keep it about me, me, me and not others.

Now im gonna stop being a muckraker in karen's tranquil space.

peace
patti

[Karen Mayes]

Okay.

I believe Patti Durr...she's going out of her way. I know it's hard to believe, but just give her a chance. You have expressed your distrust and the reasons for it and now she knows the reasons.

Will it backfire? Maybe. Maybe not. Only time will tell.

I found Cobi's vlog cute and I enjoyed it... does that make me an insincere traitor? No, just that it's refreshing to see a kid on the brink of adulthood's point of view, being very creative and showing an unique sense of humor... that I admire in a kid. I know he does not represent all deaf kids, but I enjoyed it anyway. Also I chuckled at DeafJeff's vlog... whatever, that's his point of view.

Now, Patti... thanks for showing up on my posting. I appreciate it.

[theholism]

Okay Patti... I do appreciate your coming over and trying to make amends. That's a good start, however like I pointed out earlier there is no use in trying to fool anybody. Get rid of these masks because you simply can not be somebody that you are not. That's the advice I'll give you.

And lastly, I'd like to thank Karen for allowing us to use this platform. It has been very helpful, I believe, in helping all sides see things more clearly. Thank you Karen.

[Karen Mayes]

Anytime, Barry.

[theholism]

Oh and I forgot to thank Barb for coming in as well. Thanks Barb.

[DerSankt]

After reading these comments and seeing that my name has appeared in terms of trying to refute some disputed facts between who said what.

First thing first, I do not have an opinion or statements regarding my feelings about such subject. It is too subjective for me and others to even have a productive dialogue. However, I will discuss facts.

Fact #1: Barry Sewell sought me out when he saw my blog calling Ella a coward and wanted to discuss ways to counter the opposition against "us" at the time.

Fact #2: During the whole DBC fiasco, there was DBC and then there was us.

Fact #3: Barry Sewell sent me three documents to be signed (very explicit instructions on how this should be executed. The documents were intended to be sent to the workplaces of these three people: barb, David, and Ella. All of the documents questioned their capacity to do their jobs correctly.

Fact #4: I was the one who passed the letters on to the people being accused. Yes, me.

Fact #5: Barry sent those emails to me and I still have them. They are free to anyone who wishes to obtain a copy.

I hope having these facts come into light will clarify some of your misunderstandings about what happened with these letters and how the three accused people got them.

-Ben Vess

[Ann_C]

Ben,

Pls email me at i.reflections@yahoo.com. Lost your email address some time ago when I switched ISP's last year.

Thanks.

Ann_C

[theholism]

Ben,

Thank you for coming forward as well. I already explained in this thread that I had access to these documents (letters). I already explained that there were some people involved. I already explained that there were proposals on explicit instruction on how some people wanted to carried out. The point is I was not the originated these ideas and letter. As I explained earlier people saw me as the leading crusader against DBC and sent me different stuff. Not sure who sought after whom as I do not recall exactly how we met, Ben. I told you these letters that were being circulated and I believe you wanted to see them so I sent them to you as well as other individuals who wanted to see them as well. You were not the only person in the picture.

I also do not know who you've distributed these letters to and heck I still don't know who actually executed these letters and sent them out. I'm still clueless on that as I've never seen the actual executed letter. I remember dropping the ball because I agreed with you on why we should not be doing this. I hope you'll also distribute copies of statement reflecting this.

Thanks again Ben. Appreciate it.
Barry

[theholism]

By the way Ben, I don't recall anybody preparing a letter for Ella's employer. Ella did not have an employer at that time. Not according to my knowledge. I checked the files again and did not see any letter on Ella. I'm only aware of letters being prepared for Barb and David's employers. If any letter were drafted for Ella then I certainly had no knowledge of it. Would like to see a copy of it. The email address has remained the same, drhocokan@gmail.com.

Thanks again,
Barry

[Candy]

Ben...

"very explicit instructions on how this should be executed."

by whom?

[theholism]

Hi again Ben. I went back to read your comment again and learned something new. According to your comment you were the one that passed the letters to people being accused. By this I assume you meant Ella, David and Barb. Correct me if I'm wrong Ben. If that's the case then I never knew about it. This begs the question if you also told them (people being accused) that I had also agreed with you that this letter thing was not a good idea? I wonder...

Thanks.

[theholism]

Candy,

I have records of who sent me letters / proposals (so-called explicit instructions) coming from different people who had different ideas on how they thought it should be carried out. I told Ben about it and he offered to execute it himself only to come back later and told me he spoke to somebody who said it was not a good idea. He explained why and I agreed with him. And that was it. I dropped the whole thing and told everybody that I was not going to get involved. The explicit instruction Ben saw won't answer our boiling question here because there were more than one proposals on so-called explicit instructions coming from different people. I don't recall which instruction Ben saw. I could look that up. And yes, all of these information ended up on my desk, again because people saw me as the leading crusader against DBC. And yes, I got blamed for it. It's the price I pay for being the crusader, which is okay. It still does not change the fact that I wiped my hands clean off it when Ben shared why he thought it was not a good idea. And two, it still does not change the fact that I did not execute the so-called explicit instruction, whichever one Ben's referring to. Three, I did not execute the letters.

In essence, the people that saw the executed letters are not forthcoming on who actually signed them. If I knew who I'd then be able to trace it down to which so-called explicit instruction were used. I'm not doing this to hold anybody accountable for what happened here. I'm doing this because I know I did not take this thing any where after I agreed with Ben Vess. What happened afterwards is beyond me and I'm trying to understand what actually transpired afterwards. To date nobody's willing to tell me, I suspect because they're hoping that it'd break me. It's probably the only best thing they have on me.

[Karen Mayes]

Okay,

I was out when Ben Vess showed up and left his comment... out to pick my daughter up from school, out to dinner, etc...

Hmm... I know I did say discuss the letter out of my blog earlier today, but in this light, I feel it's best that we continued discussing the letter on my blog... for some reason it's important... we need to know how it happened, who wrote it, etc... it's best that nothing, but the whole truth comes out now and once for all.

I can honestly say that I had no involvement in the letter campaign, so these information are new to me.

I wonder if the letter campaign was the reason for the lasting bitterness between "groups"?

I am hoping that Ben would come back and explain a bit more...anyone involved, please come out.